HerMoney Podcast Episode 257: How Women Over 50 Can Reclaim Workplace Confidence And Power 

Jean Chatzky: (00:47)
Hey everyone. I’m Jean Chatzky. Thank you so much for joining me today on HerMoney. We are recording this episode the day after International Women’s Day, and you’re likely listening during Women’s History Month. For a long while the phrase, the future is female seemed not to just be a prediction. It seemed to be true. Over the last decade, as workplace participation for men 55 and over declined, workplace participation for women 55 and over rose, according to an analysis from The Conference Board. But today, we see a different picture. We’ve lost far more women than men from the workforce this past year due to COVID. Millions of women have been forced out of jobs they love due to a layoff or to care for family members. Older women were particularly impacted. So what happens now? Well, of course we hope those women who were displaced will find their places once again. But it’s also important to acknowledge that, as our guest today will remind us, for women over 50, work is often as much about a sense of purpose and connected professional growth as it is the paycheck. Yet, all too often, we feel marginalized. We face ageism in ways that men don’t. And we’re often not as confident as we used to be. The most troubling part of all of this is that it happens at a time when we have more to offer than ever before in our careers. So what can we do? Bonnie Marcus is a former CEO and host of the podcast, Badass Women at Any Age. She is the author of the previous bestseller, The Politics of Promotion: How High Achieving Women Get Ahead and Stay Ahead. And her new book is not done yet. How Women Over 50 Regain Their Confidence and Claim Their Workplace Power. Bonnie, welcome.

Bonnie Marcus: (02:45)
Oh, thanks for having me on the show, Jean.

Jean Chatzky: (02:48)
Tell me a little bit about what inspired you to write this particular book?

Bonnie Marcus: (02:52)
Well, I am an executive coach. About four years ago, I had a client, a female attorney, 58 at the time, who was working for a large tech firm in Silicon Valley. And she had a great track record. She was a valuable member of the legal team at this organization. But she started to notice that she wasn’t invited to key meetings anymore. And her opinion, nobody asked her opinion anymore. And her workload started to get redistributed. And I went through this painful experience with her. It certainly wasn’t about her talent. It wasn’t about her performance in any way. She was the oldest member in her department and one of the oldest in her company. So I started to do research about gendered ageism and found that this is a real thing, although not many people are talking about it. It’s kind of under the radar. And I also started to do interviews with women who fall into this age demographic and are in corporate America. And they were sharing their stories of being marginalized and diminished, and sometimes really pushed out the door. Subjected to horrific ageist comments. Demeaning comments, about their age. And I became really passionate about this topic and wanted to write a book that would not only bring awareness to gendered ageism in the workplace, but would give women a voice to be able to defy their own ageist assumptions and deal with society and the workplace bias.

Jean Chatzky: (04:53)
You know, it’s interesting to me, two things that you brought up in that introduction. One is that we have ageist assumptions of our own as women, that they’re not all coming from men. Can you dig into that a little?

Bonnie Marcus: (05:08)
Yeah. First of all, ageist assumptions are so ingrained in our society that we don’t even realize how many ageist assumptions we hold ourselves. And I realized, certainly when I was writing this book, how many ageist assumptions of my own I carry. But what is really important to note is that we need to take a deep dive and reflect, and understand what the ageist assumptions we have, because they have the potential to sabotage our success. They have a potential to hold us back from really showing up in the workplace with our authentic power and value. So, you know, for instance, if we feel that we are too old to compete, we may not raise our hand and share our opinions. We may not volunteer for special projects. We may hold ourselves back and become invisible ourselves. We might feel that we need to look young and attractive to be able to succeed. And a lot of the women that I interviewed in this book felt compelled to have eye lift surgery, to have filler and Botox to maintain their status. I mean, we’re not even talking about getting ahead. They feel the pressure all the time to look young and they see younger women getting more attention in the workplace. We may feel that we are too old to compete and therefore we don’t compete. We may actually have some fear around aging, some fear that we are actually going to lose our cognitive abilities. When in fact research shows that our brain may function a little differently, but it actually positions us better to handle some of the issues that we face in the workplace. So our mindset about aging is really, really important. There’s research that was done recently by Yale that shows that if we have a positive mindset about aging, we actually live seven and a half years longer.

Jean Chatzky: (07:35)
But I am listening to you describe these assumptions that many of us hold in thinking. Yeah, I hope that myself. You know, I’ve had Botox. Are you suggesting that we get rid of these? How do we deal with them?

Bonnie Marcus: (07:51)
Well, I’m not suggesting that we can ever get rid of any of our limiting beliefs. You know, there’s probably a whole slew of them. I’m not good enough. I’m not pretty enough. I’m not smart enough. But what we do need to do is understand that they have the potential to undermine our success. And when we understand that, to learn through practice and repeated practice, to give them less attention. So you never get rid of that negative chatter necessarily in your head, but you can learn to focus more on some of the positive affirmations about owning your history, owning your talent, the wisdom, the lessons that you’ve learned over the years.

Jean Chatzky: (08:41)
You also talk in the book about the myth of meritocracy and how it’s derailed many hardworking, ambitious women across the age spectrum. Can you tell us what you mean by that?

Bonnie Marcus: (08:52)
When I was fairly young in my career, I was passed over for a promotion even though I was a top performer. But when it came to the promotion, they gave it to somebody else. I was totally blindsided. But it was such a great lesson at that point in my career because I realized that there were a lot of things I was not doing. I had no idea what it would really take to get ahead. What are the unwritten rules? I didn’t have a strong relationship with my manager who was new. Just came into the organization. I didn’t know how the decision would be made. So I didn’t have the allies and champions that I would need to advocate for myself, perhaps. So I mean the bottom line is, I didn’t understand that it takes more than hard work and great performance. You really need to understand the politics and understand the dynamics in your workplace.

Jean Chatzky: (09:55)
How do you get a grip on those if you don’t feel you have a grip on it right now?

Bonnie Marcus: (09:59)
Well, there are some things that you could look for. What are the rules of your organization, which are pretty straightforward, the policies? But then again, what are the unwritten rules? And look under the covers, right? And the organization may say, yeah, we’re a meritocracy. Most organizations are striving there. But when you look under the covers, what does it really take to get ahead? It’s important to really observe who were the people who are getting ahead? And how do they position themselves? And who are their clients? And is it different for a woman than a man? So it’s understanding all of that. All that information helps you to position yourself successfully. Otherwise you’re, you’re trying to build your career in a vacuum.

Jean Chatzky: (10:54)
No, absolutely. As I’m listening to you talk, I think that these are things that apply to all women, right? I mean, yes, absolutely. They are important for women over 50. But the earlier we can learn these things in our careers, the better off we’re going to be throughout our careers as a whole.

Bonnie Marcus: (11:12)
True. You shouldn’t wait to build a strong network when you’re 50. You shouldn’t wait to have discussions with your manager about your career path and how you are invested and committed to your position and the organization. You shouldn’t wait to stay on top of the skills that you need. Learning new ones and improving the ones that you know are important. I mean, these are things that we should do all along. We shouldn’t wait to create what I call a visibility plan, where we really make a strategic plan on how to stay visible and relevant in our workplace. So yeah, these things apply your whole career, but you need to be more vigilant. And especially if you haven’t been doing it as you approach 50, you need to start paying attention to that.

Jean Chatzky: (12:10)
I know you put a ton of research into this book. I want to talk about the most surprising things that you found and that you realized as you were writing it. But let me just take a minute to remind everyone that HerMoney is brought to you by Fidelity Investments. Harness your economic power, join Fidelity’s Women Talk Money pop-up for tips on a healthier financial future. Earlier this month, I spoke with Dr. Romie Mushtaq about improving your financial wellness in good times and in bad. And on March 24th, former HerMoney guests, Eve Rodsky and Tiffany Dufu will share how to use healthy money habits to create the life you want. Learn more or watch event replays on demand at Fidelity.com/HerMoney. I’m back with Bonnie Marcus author of Not Done Yet: How Women Over 50 Regain Their Confidence and Claim Their Workplace Power. So Bonnie, what were your big surprising ahas that came out of writing this book?

Bonnie Marcus: (13:11)
I would say the biggest one was how prevalent gendered ageism is, not only in our society, but especially in the workplace, and how it falls beneath the radar. People are unaware of, not only gendered ageism, but the effect on the financial security of women, their job security, the effect on their ambition, right? And when I first started to research this and I reached out to women for interviews, there was a hesitancy on the part of many women to share their experiences and talk about this issue. A lot of the women who are in the book did so anonymously. And there’s some amount of shame around owning our age and showing up and being proud of our experience. I think it’s similar to when the Me Too movement first started, you know, before the me too movement, when women were really ashamed and silent about calling attention to any sexual abuse or harassment, and they didn’t feel empowered or have a safe environment. And one of my biggest surprises is that this is very similar to where women are now around their age, and ageism in the workplace that they are being subjected to. They don’t feel safe enough to come forward and really talk about it.

Jean Chatzky: (14:52)
I’m so surprised to hear that that still exists in 2021. I mean, I found for me, turning 40 was really hard, but turning 50 was kind of great. Like I felt like I found my voice. I felt like I could say whatever I wanted to say whenever I wanted to say it. You know, I just felt very free at 50, in a way that I didn’t at 40. And I’m saddened to hear that it’s not that way for so many women.

Bonnie Marcus: (15:24)
Well, I think the big difference Jean is that, in the corporate environment, the pressure to be young, the pressure to look young, especially for women, is really much more prevalent. We’ve face gendered ageism certainly in society, in our private lives, certainly. But we are penalized in the workplace and disregarded. So that I think is the big difference. Years ago, I did a lot of research, probably five years ago now, on women and ambition. And I found that young women coming into the workplace initially, have the highest amount of ambition. It dips around child-rearing age, you know, thirties, forties, perhaps. But it really starts to pick up again as women hit 50 and beyond. So to your point, we really start feeling our oats. Maybe our kids are a little older. Maybe we have an empty nest. And so it’s not surprising that women feel very secure and authentic at this age. But when they are constantly subjected, in the workplace, to demeaning remarks and ageist policies and pushed aside, it really affects them in many, many ways.

Jean Chatzky: (16:51)
I want to dig a little deeper into how we look. Because I’m wondering if your advice would be don’t color your hair. Don’t get fillers. Don’t dress in a more youthful way. I mean, I have problems with the youthful dressing. I love those stories that tell you exactly what you’re supposed to wear at 30, 40, 50, and 60, because they give me a roadmap.

Bonnie Marcus: (17:14)
I get that in my feed.

Jean Chatzky: (17:15)
I’ve been thinking about writing a story about all the makeup that I’ve bought during COVID. And I think I’ve spent more on makeup than I have on anything else. And I’m putting it on for me, right? I don’t want to look at myself in the mirror without makeup, at least without concealer under my eyes. And I have not stopped coloring my hair. And one of the first appointments that I made was to go to the dermatologist. I totally hear what you are saying about corporate America. I don’t think it’s limited to corporate America. I think it’s everywhere. It’s certainly in television. It’s certainly in the world of public speaking where I live. But are you saying we should stop doing it? Cause you know, I forced my husband to buy glasses that make him a little more youthful too.

Bonnie Marcus: (17:59)
You know, there’s no judgment. If you feel that coloring your hair, or having some cosmetic surgery, makes you feel better about yourself and makes you feel more confident, there’s no judgment there. And I talk in the book a little bit about Jane Fonda, who just won an award at the Golden Globes this past week. And she looks amazing at 84. And sure, she’s had work done. You could throw stones and say, oh my God, she’s so vain. But I don’t think that’s it. I think she does it to keep working. And so we need to understand that women are in different places and feel different pressures. And there is no judgment about enhancing your look or wearing makeup. What I’ve found is that I can’t stand looking at myself on zoom all day long. And before COVID I, you know, it’s like looking in a mirror all day long and it really forces you to say, oh my God, you know, I’ve got a double chin. Oh my God, this and that. I have a friend who’s business manager for a plastic surgery center here in California. And she said, my God, they’re busier than ever. And it starts younger than ever, by the way. You know, women who get Botox early, you know, late twenties, thirties. So no, I mean, I use anti-aging products. Oh my gosh. I go for facials all the time. It’s not a judgment. It’s just a comment that we need to feel good about ourselves. We feel the need to do this.

Jean Chatzky: (19:49)
Yeah. I think the line is, if you’re doing it to feel good about yourself, that’s one thing. And if you’re doing it because you think you have to do it in order to keep your job, there’s something wrong with that. And it’s not that there’s something wrong with you. It’s that there’s something wrong with the system. I know we’ve got so many things. There’s so much in this book of yours. And you share seven things that professional women need to do to show their value and stay in the game. We’ve talked about a lot of them, but one of the things that we haven’t talked about is advocating for others. I think it’s totally on us to bring other women along.

Bonnie Marcus: (20:30)
I agree, and we don’t do enough of it, Jean. We seriously don’t do enough of it. We need to learn how to, not only advocate for ourselves, but advocate for others and bring other women along. One of the things I talk about in the book is the importance of also building relationships with women of all ages, right? To mentor and to be there for our younger colleagues, who can really benefit from the lessons we’ve learned and our wisdom and experience. And of course we have a lot to learn from them as well, but we have been around the block, right? We’ve got a lot of contacts. Who can we introduce them to, to build their network and build their influence. And we just don’t think of it and we don’t do enough of that.

Jean Chatzky: (21:24)
Amen to that. Bonnie Marcus, thank you so much for being with us today.

Bonnie Marcus: (21:28)
Thanks for having me. It’s been great.

Jean Chatzky: (21:30)
And we’ll be right back with Kathryn and your mailbag.

Jean Chatzky: (21:39)
And HerMoney’s Kathryn Tuggle joins me now for your mailbag. Hey Kathryn.

Kathryn Tuggle: (21:45)
Hey Jean. Thanks for sitting down with Bonnie today. I think a lot of our listeners will get a lot out of that.

Jean Chatzky: (21:52)
I hope so. I hope so. I think, I mean, part of me always regrets it when we tie a show to a particular age. We do it sometimes with millennials. We do it sometimes with Gen Z today. We did it with women over 50. Because I feel like the advice is appropriate no matter what age you are. And learning some of these things when you’re in your twenties is great. And so I enjoyed the conversation as well.

Kathryn Tuggle: (22:18)
Well, I think that all of us, no matter our age are aware that it’s coming. That we are getting older every year and we want to be prepared when we get there. So I feel like I’ve always enjoyed listening to stories of women in all ages and at all different stages of their career for that reason, because I know I always want to keep working.

Jean Chatzky: (22:40)
Yeah, no for sure. That’s true for me also. Anyway, let’s dig into our mailbag.

Kathryn Tuggle: (22:45)
Our first note comes to us from Jasmine. She writes, hi Jean and Kathryn. I began listening to your podcast with hopes of getting a better understanding of how to manage my finances. I’m 31 years old. Currently I have $50,000 in student debt, $6,000 in savings and $2,000 in a 403b account with company matching. I also have $300 in a Roth IRA. I have one child. I’ve been wanting to pay my student loans off, but I think it might be best to save the money for an emergency or towards retirement. What do you think? Thank you for helping me with this.

Jean Chatzky: (23:20)
Hey Jasmine, thank you so much for writing. I think that your inclination is a good one. I don’t have a ton of information about your financial situation that I can lean on in order to give you this advice, but I’m going to give you my thoughts in a more general sense with some caveats. You don’t say whether those student loans are federal or whether they’re private. Assuming they’re federal, you have the opportunity right now to put those payments on pause and pay zero interest. And that would give you the ability to put more into your emergency cushion, and you definitely need it, as well as to put more into that retirement account. In general, we want to invest our money and use our money in the way that brings us the best possible bottom line return. And the way to think about this is that any interest that you pay on a debt is equal to the return on your money. So when you pay interest on student loans, at say 4% or 5% or 6%, the return that you’re getting on your money is a 4% or 5% or 6% guaranteed return. If you put a dollar into your 403b, and that money is matched 50 cents on the dollar, that’s a 50% return. And by the same token, if you put money in your savings account and you earn one 10th of 1% interest, that’s a totally negligible return. It’s next to zero. So why does that savings account go at the top of the list? It goes at the top of the list because we’ve learned during this pandemic that there are emergencies and that we have to plan for emergencies. So I want you to try to get that savings account up to the point where you’ve got three months of savings that could carry you through a layoff or a job loss. Then I want you to focus on grabbing all of the matching dollars available to you in your 403b. If you can contribute more in order to have that balance grow faster, that’s great. But with those student loans, you should probably just look at getting on a payment plan that you can afford, that includes income-based repayment, if that’s an option for you. And then over the longterm, just compartmentalizing them, paying them off over time, and prioritizing those other items on your list that either keep you nice and safe and secure or put more money in your pocket longterrm. I hope that that makes sense. If you have more details and you want to send me another letter with those details, I am happy to answer this question again. Thanks for listening.

Kathryn Tuggle: (26:33)
That’s great advice, Jean. She definitely needs to beef up that emergency fund, so she’s ready for whatever comes next. Our next note comes to us from Claire. She writes, hi Jean. Big fan of the show. Your advice helped me buy my first condo two years ago, so thank you. My question is about retirement account prioritization. I’m 35, single, make about $145,000 annually, and have about $215,000 in retirement savings in a mix between my employer 401k, a Roth IRA and a rollover IRA. I also have a six month emergency fund in a high-yield savings account. I’m in a position this year to fully max out my 401k contributions, and I’m also in the phase out window for Roth IRA contributions, so I’m wondering where my money goes next. I receive an annual bonus and, in the past, I’ve automatically put $6,000 of that into my Roth IRA. But now that I’m phasing out of Roth eligibility, I’m wondering how to redirect that $6,000 I have earmarked for retirement. I know I can still put a portion into the Roth IRA, but I’m comparing investing via my HSA or doing a backdoor Roth contribution. I’ll admit I don’t fully understand the backdoor Roth option though. What should I do? Thanks so much.

Jean Chatzky: (27:51)
Hey Claire. Thanks so much for writing. And can I just say, wow. Like you really have it together. And I think that your question is a really good question. I was heading for the backdoor Roth before you even teed it up, and here’s why, and here’s also why that money in a health savings account is an equally good solution. So when you look out toward your retirement, particularly at your young age and particularly given how well you’re doing at growing your base of assets, there’s a pretty good chance that your tax bracket is going to be higher than your tax bracket is now. There’s also, in my opinion, a pretty good chance that taxes, overall, are going to be higher than taxes are now. And that argues for paying taxes on investments whenever you can today. So a backdoor Roth is basically just a Roth conversion. You put your money into a traditional IRA and then you pay the taxes to convert that money into a Roth. It’ll cost you a little more than the $6,000 cause you’re coming out of pocket for the taxes as well. It’s okay. Just go ahead and bite the bullet now so that you won’t have to bite the bullet later. The reason that a health savings account is also a good solution, and if you’re already contributing to a health savings account I would just aim to do both of these things, is that a health savings account is triple tax-free. That means that on money that goes in, you actually get a tax deduction. When the money grows, there is no owed on that growth. And as long as you maintain a certain balance in your HSA, many firms that administer these accounts will allow you to invest it in mutual funds. And the third tax-free is that when you pull it out, as long as you use it for qualified medical expenses, you pay no taxes. And we are all going to have qualified medical expenses in retirement, so this just becomes your medical account. If you don’t have medical expenses in retirement and you want to use it for other things, you will pay taxes on the income, but you won’t end up paying a penalty. It is a beatiful system. It works just like money that you put into a 401k at that point in your life. But chances are pretty good that you are going to have medical needs, even if you only use that money to pay your Medicare premium in retirement. Fidelity’s research has shown that in their sixties, people typically have about $5,000 a year in unreimbursed medical expenses, and you could use this money for that. So I like your thinking. I like all of your different options. And the only other thing to point out about the HSA is that, if you’re going to go this route with your health savings account, it basically means that you’re saying you’re going to try to pay for your current medical expenses, if you have them, out of current cashflow. That you’re not going to pull the money out of the HSA. You’re going to try to grow it instead. But I think you’re doing great. I think you’re on the right track. And I’m so glad that you got the condo that you want.

Kathryn Tuggle: (31:18)
Yeah, absolutely. Claire. What an amazing job saving. And all of those accounts that you’ve mentioned where you’ve been saving are just such good moves. And just great job saving overall.

Jean Chatzky: (31:29)
Absolutely. Kathryn, thank you so much for the questions. Can we just remind everybody, if you would like to tee up a question for me or Kathryn or both of us to answer, just go to mailbag@hermoney.com and send it on it.

Kathryn Tuggle: (31:46)
Absolutely. We love hearing from you and I get all the emails and pick them up immediately. So it’s a direct line to the two of us.

Jean Chatzky: (31:54)
And in today’s thrive, let’s talk about the American Rescue Plan. What’s in that $1.9 trillion American Rescue Plan. Well, the biggest stimulus checks yet, more weeks of expanded unemployment benefits, and the biggest helping hand for low-income families with children in decades. Here’s a look at what you need to know. All right, first, let’s talk about those stimulus checks. By the time you hear this, those $1,400 payments for individuals making up to $75,000, heads of households making up to $112,500, and couples making up to $150,000, may actually have landed in your bank account. They are expected to be moving that quickly. This time around, the payments will start to taper off faster than in prior rounds at incomes of $80,000 for singles, $120,000 for heads of households and $16,000 for couple. They are gone entirely. Families will also receive an additional $1,400 for dependents. That’s a change from prior rounds, where only children under 17 years of age brought them on. These also taper based on taxpayer income. And importantly, these payments are going to be based on the most recent income the IRS has on you. That’s your 2020 return if you filed early. Otherwise it’s 2019. If you earned too much to qualify in 2019, but were eligible in 2020, filing quickly may help. You can also request a refund of money you were owed, but didn’t receive if say, you had a baby that the IRS didn’t know about when you file your 2020 return. Second piece of important information, federal unemployment payments will continue at the current rate of $300 a week. They will extend until September 6. The pandemic unemployment assistance program, that’s the one for gig workers, contract workers, self-employed and freelance workers. That’ll also be extended until that date. And there’s still an additional $100 available to these folks, in addition to the 300, on the logic that these folks are not likely to get as much from their state unemployment benefits. Speaking of which, state unemployment benefits will be extended for another 29 weeks, bringing the total of available weeks to 79. Then there’s the PPP which was turned back on in the last round of stimulus. It’ll be topped up. Some companies that have struggled particularly hard are still eligible to apply for second loans. Additionally, there is more than $28 billion in this bill earmarked as debt relief for restaurants. It’ll provide grants of up to 5 million for small restaurants and 10 million for restaurant groups. And wait, there’s more, we’ve got a full roundup at hermoney.com for resources that you can turn to during your times of need, as well as full details on the American Rescue Plan.

Jean Chatzky: (35:11)
Thank you so much for joining me today on HerMoney. Thanks to Bonnie Marcus for walking us through how women over 50 can reclaim their power and their confidence. If you like what you hear, I hope that you’ll subscribe to our show at Apple podcasts. Leave us a review because we love hearing what you think. We want to thank our sponsor Fidelity. We record this podcast out of CDM Sound Studios. Our music is provided by Video Helper and our show to you through Megaphone. Thank you so much for joining us and we’ll talk soon.